Tournament Scoring

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Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

So this isnt a question about individual points per se. This is a how we work out the winners of the teams tournament.

Now for me I think its important to score the individual ties. E.g. I think if a team wins all of its 6 games 2.5 to 1.5 (i.e. 2 wins a draw and a loss) they are more deserving of the title than the team that wins 3 games 4.0 to 0, a draw 2.0 to 2.0, a loss 1.5 to 2.5, and a loss 0 to 4.0.
Under world cup scoring the second team would win with total points of 15.5 (3 wins, 1 draw 2 losses) against total points 15 (6 wins).

I think we need to adopt what was done at AusBowl. And award 2 points for winning the tie, 1 point for a draw and 0 for a loss. Base the final standings on these points, and use the total points within each tie as the tiebreaker.

The other option is just to take the average individual scores of the 4 coaches to determine the winner (its what is done on day 1 of Euc Bowl). I could live with this... but frankly im a fan of rewarding gutsing out the head to head battles.

my 2 cents.. Wanted this out there early as I dont agree with using the world cup scoring method to determine the teams winner
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by doubleskulls »

I don't tend to agree because I think the strength in depth of teams matters. Having a straight team w/d/l gives rewards teams who manage narrow wins consistently, rather than those who may win some rounds convincingly and others fall to a draw or narrow loss. So if you had a team with 3 great coaches and 1 poor one it can win every round 3-1, where as a team with 4 good coaches might win some rounds 4-0 and tie or draw other rounds. I don't think the performance of the team is necessarily worse because of that.

For me, summing the results of all the games played by the team and comparing the result is more likely to produce a result that accurately reflects the ability of all the coaches in a team, rather than just the best 2-3 players in each team.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

a group of mates who play together (even if it is carrying a weaker player) and as a team beat everyone they play are far more deserving of the win than a group of 4 shit hot individual players who cant get their act together to win a key game but squash everyone else.

A football side can win every game in the regular season but if they dont win their finals games they go home without prize. They dont have to be the best players either.. the representative players could all come from teams that fail to make the finals, but the team that plays like a team (yes the analogy isnt perfect as Blood Bowl really is an individual game) wins like a team.
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Spieroz »

doubleskulls wrote:For me, summing the results of all the games played by the team and comparing the result is more likely to produce a result that accurately reflects the ability of all the coaches in a team, rather than just the best 2-3 players in each team.
Rabid_Bogscum wrote:a group of mates who play together (even if it is carrying a weaker player) and as a team beat everyone they play are far more deserving of the win than a group of 4 shit hot individual players who cant get their act together to win a key game but squash everyone else.
It sounds like you are both actually advocating the same thing on a philosophical level. I'm not even going to try and do any maths to currently figure out the best way to accomplish this, but I believe its the results as a team as an overall team that matter. For example, that 3 wins and a loss are ranked higher than 2 wins 2 draws. I believe each round should be worked out on its individual merits as a team, and if countbacks are required these start with individual wins etc.

Just my 2cents on it all

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Mango »

Sorry if I missed some info from another thread but is it fully decided how the tourney is going to be run?

You could always do 4 rounds of swiss and then the top 4 play a finals series to determine the top 4 places thus eliminating the problem all together for the top 4 places. I personally think this would be a great way to run the tourney and really have a very exciting finals series for the last 2 games which people can also enjoy spectating because the results of those games directly effect each teams chance of winning the flag.

For the rest of the field I think a 'win is a win' and the level of the win should only be used for countback purposes

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

yeah mango alot has been decided already.

Spieroz if i use my previous example

I prefer the team with 12 wins, 6 draws, 6 losses (winning all 6 head to head match ups)
while Ian prefers 13 Wins, 5 Draws, 6 Losses (winning only 3 Head to head match ups, drawing 1, and losing 2)
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

At AusBowl Grimrod pulled off a clutch underdog draw against Doubleskulls which won ACT the Tie against NSW. In the end they garnered more points than NSW anyway but I would have hated to see that result mean nothing. It was part of the reason I ran AusBowl that way as I thought ACT were a threat head to head but NSW depth wise would probably win more games etc, and it would look pretty suss if I devised a system where NSW won despite losing to ACT.
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by D_Arquebus »

I prefer the individual performance of Team vs Team to take precedence.

That is, Overall ROund Win/ Draw/ Loss vs other Teams more so then overall player performance. So 2 wins each is a draw. 3 wins to 1 is a win for the first team. 2 wins a draw and a loss is also a win to the first team etc.

It gives that little boost to the Head to Head rivalries (all in good fun of course :)). And focusses on the team. If one player has a bad round, and realises early enough then their teammates can try to ensure they win etc their games to cover him/ her and still get the round "Win" for the Team.

The averaged result is more of an individual championship with "groupings/ exclusions" for who you can play.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by doubleskulls »

@Spieroz - our difference is that I think we should sum the individual matches from the whole tournament across all the coaches in a team to work out which performs the best.

Rabid thinks we should work out the winner of each round for teams, and then the winner should be the team that wins the most rounds.
Rabid_Bogscum wrote:I prefer the team with 12 wins, 6 draws, 6 losses (winning all 6 head to head match ups)
while Ian prefers 13 Wins, 5 Draws, 6 Losses (winning only 3 Head to head match ups, drawing 1, and losing 2)
Or, if we make it look less silly from my POV...

You prefer 12-6-6 (six 2.5-1.5 round wins) over 21-1-2 (five 4-0 round wins and a 1.5-2.5 loss)

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by doubleskulls »

Rabid_Bogscum wrote:At AusBowl Grimrod pulled off a clutch underdog draw against Doubleskulls which won ACT the Tie against NSW. In the end they garnered more points than NSW anyway but I would have hated to see that result mean nothing. It was part of the reason I ran AusBowl that way as I thought ACT were a threat head to head but NSW depth wise would probably win more games etc, and it would look pretty suss if I devised a system where NSW won despite losing to ACT.
I think its different when the teams all play each other like at AusBowl.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

There are extremes to both our arguments.

Even in Ians prettier example for his argument I dont think you could claim to be hard done by as your team played the winning team and couldnt best them. Get a draw and you romp it in. As I said this is my opinion.. and once again Ian has the opposite opinion :P and its up to the community to debate what they want in the tournament
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by BeefyGoodness »

This is a very good question. Thanks for bringing it up.

Personally I'm all for Ian's suggestion in the context of this tournament as the team match ups matter (i.e. you'll face winning teams) and your overall team score does matter.

Can you guys elaborate on the discussion based on my interpretations below?

If we followed the head to head method (Rabids suggestion and what was done at Ausbowl 1) then we will have a clear winner after 6 rounds (no need to break ties really) but then a teams chances of coming back in later rounds after losing one early becomes virtually nil?

If we follow DBLskulls suggestion then all games are valid up until the last to determine the overall placings?

I like that the head to head idea makes the AUSBOWL teams event special (i.e. specifically for that) but don't feel pushed to make the Teams event follow suit.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

I can accept if you like the state Ausbowl being structured the way it was and remaining unique.

I think saying a team that loses early is out of it is false as the top teams will still play the other available top teams and are still every chance of stumbling.

My only concern is it takes away any point of scoring the head to heads at all. You may as well average all the players as those 21 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses need to be shared around the team in one way shape or form anyway. Why pretend its anything other :-* than an individual event with the best individuals grouped together winning.

I'm not against Ians concept if that's what people prefer but it doesn't feel like a teams event then.

Say the team is looking at 2 wins and a loss and I'm playing. I can hold on for a draw so the team wins the tie, or I can risk a td for the win which may see me lose ( if its this individuals tournament in teams I'm gunning for the win) that's my argument anyway.

You asked for comments based on your interpretation beefy, so there it is, think ill wait for the vote now
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Bevan »

Rabid_Bogscum wrote:My only concern is it takes away any point of scoring the head to heads at all. You may as well average all the players as those 21 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses need to be shared around the team in one way shape or form anyway. Why pretend its anything other :-* than an individual event with the best individuals grouped together winning.
I think this clinches it in favour of Rabid's scoring method.
There would be no point in running a standard tournament as the Team event with the only proviso that players on the same team don't get matched up against each other. But that's the effect you get if only individual games and not team games count.
Individual scores should only be used as a tiebreaker. They probably won't matter for the top place but could decide some of 2nd to 5th places.

Using Doubleskulls example would be like saying that for a regular tournament you just add all the TDs for and against for each team and ignore the number of games won. A Wood Elf team could lose 5 of the 6 games by 1 TD, win the last 8-0 and win the tournament. :roll:

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by doubleskulls »

I don't believe there is any right or wrong answer here. I would point out that EuroBowl, NAF WC1 and WC2 are set up to use something more like my method.

I like the fact it makes each and every game more important. If you add all the results of all the games played by team members together then every game is as important as every other. Using the "team result per round" method then if you've won (or lost) 3 games then the outcome of the final game in the round is largely irrelevant for both teams.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by sumbloke »

How about option #3 (feel free to adjust the numbers):

Each team win earns the team 30 points, a team tie earns 10 points
Each game win earns the team 10 points, a game draw earns the team 5 points

So a 4-0 win will be 70 points, a 2.5-1.5 win would be 55, a 2-2 draw would be 30.
Doubleskulls' example comes out as 12-6-6 (six 2.5-1.5 round wins) as 330 versus 21-1-2 (five 4-0 round wins and a 1.5-2.5 loss) as 365. This means the team that has five stomping victories beats the team that just scrapes a win in all six rounds, but anything closer is likely to be the team with six wins coming out on top.
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by fnord23 »

I think I am with Doubleskulls on this but I see both points of view . If we are going with swiss matchups its very close to the first WC & the idea of every game counting appeals to me. I'd also like to see the induviduals ranked, with a trophy for the induvidual winner & MVP. This would of course be totally secondary to the teams presentations but it would be another reason to keep striving, no matter the situation.

Also, I dont think the extremes as mentioned will actually occur :)

Its the "teams swiss" nature of the AATC that tips the balance for me I think, the euro method seems to fit that in a way that I am too tired to articulate right now. A "round robin" type event, on the other hand, would probably be best with Rabids system.

Personally I like the 1/.5/0 scoring system for the teams, with something along the lines of 100/40/0 for the induviduals, maybe with 10 bonus points for losing by 1 TD.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Rabid_Bogscum »

If thats the way people want to go... but again I repeat there is no reason to worry about team scoring then. The wins, draws and losses have to go somewhere in the team so you get the same result for averaging the individual scores. The only... only thing I can see it doing is dumbing down the value of wins in the context of a normal tournament.
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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by BeefyGoodness »

Cheers for the clarifications fellas (and other people's 2c).

I'll put this one up for poll shortly. It definitely seems to be the most contentious of the format questions.

I'm back to the fence in terms of what I want.

It really is an event that is "All about the team", but I also want to give players the incentive for all of their games to matter.

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Re: Tournament Scoring

Post by Spieroz »

Sumblokes suggestion I think is on the money. It combines the two trains of thought to some degree. Overall the team victory or loss is the most important thing, but the "bonus" points for winning matches is enough that it makes a different also

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